xdoop: (Magneto & Xavier.)
Since people were asking about how I was banned, here are all the messages between the mods and myself.

I posted that Shintaro Kago story "Lord of the Ring." It was the full story, but I had posted several full stories before with no complaint, and the moderator schmevil okayed one of the original posts. One of the posters commented that they wished they could show their story to their friends but they couldn't because the post was friendlocked, so I gave them a link to the site I had gotten it from, a blog that posts scanlations.

I was planning on making a May/Jarvis post, and I wanted to do all their appearances together. PAD had written a couple of their appearances in Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man. At the time, I thought the ban was only on his work because he was against it, so I thought it would be okay to post it if I could get his approval. Since May and Jarvis's appearances in his issues only amounted to a few pages each, I assumed he wouldn't have a problem with it.

Not knowing how to contact him personally, I sent a message to his wife on LJ (PAD had used her account to post before), titled "S_D request."

Hi, I know you're Peter David's wife and I was wondering if you could forward this request to him.

I'm planning on posting a series showing Jarvis and Aunt May's relationship. Most of the material is from Amazing Spider-Man, but some of it is from Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man, and I was wondering if I could have his permission to post it.

The material from FNSM would be:
One Panel from FNSM #3 (Jarvis comforting May)
Two pages from FNSM #6 (Jarvis asking May out)
Three pages from FNSM #7 (Jarvis and May on their date).
Two pages and two panels from FNSM #10 (Jarvis and May with the alternate reality Uncle Ben).

If he doesn't want me to post this I would totally be okay with that.

Thank you.

PAD responded.

Hi, this is Peter. Understand that I'm not the copyright holder, Marvel is, so I can't give you any official sort of permission (unlike, say, if you want to repro material from "Fallen Angel" or some other property I own.) That said: From what you describe, this sounds to me like it would fall squarely under fair use. You're writing a lengthy analytical piece and using specific and limited amounts of art to illustrate key points. I would be astounded if Marvel found it objectionable. If you had never written to Kathleen and I happened to come across the material, I'd read it, be entertained by it, and move on, without once thinking that it even came close to being copyright violation. So my opinion--and it's just opinion--is that you'd be on safe ground.

I forwarded the message to skalja (without the title "s_d request") , asking
So would it be okay for me to post the stuff I asked about?

Skalja's response:

Doop,

It is with some regret that we have decided to remove you from Scans_Daily.

The reasons for this are twofold: first is your recent post of a complete story, after you have been repeatedly warned, the last time noting that you would be banned if you went over our limits again. Since you've not provided any *definitive* evidence that the story you've posted is free, public domain, web-published or an orphaned work, we take a dim view of this. We also note that you've posted a link to where people can download pirated material in full, and as such, you've broken our rules twice in one post.

The main reason, however, is your approach to Peter David. While it's true that a community has to trust its mods, the opposite also follows - the mods have to trust their members to act in a way that represents the best interests of the whole community and not constantly fight against the rules.

The "no PAD" rule was initially set up by the mods, but the comm as a whole voted in favor of keeping it, so you're at odds with the comm as a whole, not just the moderators. We consider your approach to PAD staggeringly ill-advised (something we would have told you if you'd consulted us before contacting him). You made a choice that could have become dangerous to the future of the community for reasons out of your control. While PAD doesn't appear to have taken offense to your request on this occasion, drawing attention from the man who triggered the shutdown of our first iteration could well have been (and might still turn out to be) a problem for the comm and its members. Indeed, we note that you make no mention of posting the discussed entry to Scans_Daily.

PAD may have given you his blessing for you to post such an entry on your own personal journal, because that's how you implied you would be posting your series. However, his views on the community's activities as a whole are well documented and unlikely to change -- nor is his position that if he sees a person or community violating what he perceives as fair use, he will report them to the appropriate legal team. The moderators will not give you permission to post where he has not.

Because we feel that we cannot trust you to act with the best interests of the community and its members in mind, we are removing your membership from Scans_Daily.

- the Scans_Daily Mod team

I responded:
Wait, what? First off, I never posted the PAD stuff; that's why I sent you a message asking you first. I wasn't going to post it without your permission.

And what are you talking about, downloading pirated material? The Shintaro Kago stuff? It was already established he had no problem with people downloading his work. When CyberGhostface posted Kago's supergirl story, he said "There are no 'official' english translations of Kago available; they're fan-scanned, fan-translated, and fan-distributed and Kago is cool with it (he appreciates the fans efforts in sharing his work)." Do I have to put a disclaimer like that everytime I make a post of his??

I added in a separate message:
Furthermore, maybe I should have made this more clear, but the title of my original message to PAD was "S_D Request."

Skalja responded:
Although we couldn't force you to talk to us before writing to him, if you were going to approach PAD for the purposes of getting permission to make a Scans_Daily post you really should have contacted us first to discuss the possible implications and consequences. The message you did send was deceptive both to PAD and to us; you didn't tell him that your post was for Scans_Daily, which would almost certainly have changed the tenor of his reply, and then in your message to us you tried to pass off his permission to post to your personal journal (by implication) as permission to post to Scans_Daily.

This is far from the first time you've tried to find loopholes for the posting guidelines which exist for the protection of the community, not to make posters' lives difficult. That's not an attitude we can tolerate any longer.

As for the Kago post, we would actually have needed verifiable references from the publisher and Kago himself, not cyberghostface or other word-of-mouth. That said, the point is now moot.

- skalja

Skalja also responded to my second message, stating
We have no reason to believe that PAD would realize that "S_D" stands for "Scans_Daily," and even if he did, all of our other objections still stand.

I responded
I thought the Kajo stuff was dealt with when I made my second post back in March. Schmevil, who was a moderator, okayed it.

http://asylums.insanejournal.com/scans_daily/145356.html?thread=2805708#t2805708

Furthermore, I honestly wasn't trying to be deceptive, and if you didn't want me posting the PAD stuff all you had to to do was say "No." As for PAD not knowing what S_D meant; multiple people referred to Scans_Daily as S_D on his site when he made his original post, and if he didn't understand what it meant he could have asked.

And I posted his entire message for you to see for yourself; it's not like I just said "PAD said it was okay for me to post his stuff, is that okay?"


Skalja responded

Doop,

You're referring to a post from March, but we've talked before about early posts from scans_daily 2.0 not being useful as guidelines for current rules. We reassess as necessary, and we've needed to become more stringent because so many people have been trying to bend the rules lately -- one of the biggest offenders being you. A vague link to Newsarama and a fan blog are no longer good enough.

There's no reason PAD would remember an acronym someone used in the comments of his blog for a few days nine months ago. In any case, even if you didn't mean to mislead him, as we've already said you still risked bringing his attention to a community he's made absolutely clear he would have no qualms ratting out to the comics publishers.

This ban is not about any one violation; it's about a continual pattern of behavior. You continually try to find loopholes in our posting guidelines without seeming to understand that the guidelines are to protect our community, and you force us to waste time and energy picking up after you.

- We have a 1/3rd of the story/content rule; you post more than 1/3rd then try to justify that by saying you've only posted a page/half a page over so it shouldn't matter.
- We don't allow complete stories except in limited circumstances, but you post them and expect us to challenge you over them rather than clearly explaining their provenance and why they should be allowed.
- We don't allow PAD stories, a rule that was *voted on by the community*, so you contact him behind our backs and try to present us with a done deal.

Whatever your exact intentions, your actions come off as very disrespectful not only to the mod team who tries to keep S_D running, but also to the other members of the community. Any extra page of a new comic is one less page someone else can post, and trying to get PAD's permission for his post is disrespectful to the members who would *love* to post PAD scans but heed our rules and don't go looking for loopholes.

We can't trust you to follow the rules, which means that we can't trust you to think of the good of the community. And that means we can't let you stay. This is not negotiable, because there's nothing you can say at this point to convince us that your -- by now, years-long -- pattern of behavior would change. We regret it's come to this, but we need to think of scans_daily's future.

- skalja,
on behalf of the mod team

Around this time, I edited my last S_D post and said that I was banned. When one of the posters asked why, I gave my version of what happened, responding by using openid. I don't have the exact words of what what was said because the topic got deleted soon after.

At this point I sent an e-mail to the site I had gotten the Shintaro Kago story.
Hi, I was just wondering if you had any official sources where Kago said he was okay with people downloading and posting his stuff? I was just wondering because I've caught some flack over the legalities of posting it.

Thanks.

He responded
Hey Chris,

Which site are you affiliated with?  For Same Hat posts highlighting Kago's work in the past we've hosted a few short stories of Kago's from different publications, but never any complete scans, books, RARs or those types of downloads. 

I haven't heard from Kago anything explicitly, but in my personal email exchanges with him, Kago has told me that he's a fan of Same Hat and thanked me for getting him exposure to English audiences.  To date, Kago's only official releases have been in Japan and Italy. Hopefully that will be changing in the near future.

best,
Ryan

I said Scans_Daily, he said he knew of the community but hadn't frequented it in a while.

After I got the e-mail, I sent another message to skalja
I sent an e-mail to the guy who runs the site, and he said "I haven't heard from Kago anything explicitly, but in my personal email exchanges with him, Kago has told me that he's a fan of Same Hat and thanked me for getting him exposure to English audiences. To date, Kago's only official releases have been in Japan and Italy. Hopefully that will be changing in the near future."

And I wasn't trying to go behind anyone's backs with the PAD thing. I thought he would make an exception over a couple of pages being posted so I asked his permission. Then I sent you a message. If you had just said, "No, I still don't you want to post it" I wouldn't have done it. It's not like I was trying to trick you or anything. It's not like I just made the post without asking you and then said "Well, PAD said it was okay."

Skalja responded
I think we've made our position clear, Doop.

I sent another message to skalja, which wasn't responded to.
So I'm banned from a community I've been a member of for several years just like that?

I posted a story which was previously okayed with by the mods, and which I was given NO indication it was no longer okay (when did the rules change concerning Kago stories?).

And I sent an e-mail to PAD, which you keep on acting like I did with malicious intent. As for drawing his attention; he already knew about the insanejournal comm and nothing happened, and it's not like this S_D's existence is a secret. I mean, Gail tweeted about it.

I sent another message.
So there's nothing I can do about it? You can't do something like approving my posts before they're submitted?

Afterwards, I sent a message to the other mods asking
Is there anything I can do about my ban? I've been a member of S_D for several years, and I don't think it's fair that I should get banned over something like sending a message to PAD. I'm getting banned over something that isn't in the rules; if I had known that contacting PAD at all was forbidden I wouldn't have done it.

Angelophile responded
The mods are currently in the process of discussing your situation. We will be coming back to you.

Since skalja had stated that my message to PAD said nothing about scans_daily, I sent another message to him
Hi, thanks for responding.

I'm sorry if my original request was unclear; I was talking about posting the aforementioned pages on scans_daily. When that whole fiasco was going on, you said that you had "no problem with “snippets.” A few panels here, a page there. Anything that remotely falls under the realm of fair use is of no concern." That's why I was asking if you would be okay with my using those pages in my post.

PAD responded again
It is still fair use under US copyright law. I don't have a problem with it at all.
PAD

I sent another message to skalja, stating
Not that I plan on posting the pages anymore, but I sent PAD another message clarifying that it was scans_daily, and he was still okay with it.

Then Angelophile sent another message
Doop

We need to make one thing abundantly clear to you, as it's evident that you're still not understanding why you're currently banned from Scans_Daily.

You weren't banned for contacting Peter David. You've been banned for a continued pattern of behavior where you seek to circumvent Scans_Daily's rules.

Contacting Peter David was staggeringly ill advised but it's the fact that you set out to find a way around the ban on works by him that concerns us most. The rules we have are not there to deliberately restrict our members discussion but to try and protect the comm as whole. We have over 1200 active members who enjoy the community and it's the moderators job to ensure they can continue to do so by trying to ensure that posts aren't so far outside the terms of fair use that members are open to legal action. The move to Dreamwidth doesn't mean we're any less of a target for litigation.

The rule about no PAD is to try and protect our members and the comm as a whole. The rule about no more than a third of a comic being posted, the same. The rule about no direct links to pirated material, also. But you have time and time again attempted to act outside these rules in some way. It's not one instance, it's a repeated pattern.

The fact that you attempted to work around the ban by using your OpenID to log in is yet another sign that you would rather try and break the rules than try and work within them. Out of our 1200 members, it's you we've consistently had issues with.

The situation we have is we just don't believe that, firstly, you even understand why your membership has been removed, particularly in light of your second email to PAD, and from there, that your behavior will change in the future.

Approving all your posts is not the answer - we simply shouldn't have to do so, we should be able to trust our members to simply work within the rules and not constantly kick against them. And, as this current situation shows, we don't believe that you're able to do that.

For us to even consider lifting the ban, we'd need to be sure that you're willing to obey the rules, stop fighting the mods all the time and stop looking for loopholes. And currently we do not believe that you will. We have to be honest - that you went and contacted Peter David a second time, even after we clearly explained our concerns to you, has firmly convinced us that you are simply incapable of taking our concerns on board and acting in a responsible way for the good of the community.

As such, the ban will remain in place for the foreseeable future.

The Scans_Daily Mod Team

This was the last message I received from the mods. I responded
I was told I was being deceptive towards PAD by making him think it was just some website, and now by clarifying with him that i meant scans_daily means i'm staying banned??

and I still want to know when posting links to Shintaro Kago became against the rules. I remember Schmevil okaying it, I never remember any moderator saying "No, this is not okay anymore" until I got banned. How was I supposed to know the rules were changed concerning him?? And it wasn't a pirated website; the site's owner Ryan Sands has said "Kago has told me that he's a fan of Same Hat and thanked me for getting him exposure to English audiences." It's not like it's some torrenting website.

Banned

Dec. 5th, 2009 01:04 am
xdoop: (Magneto & Xavier.)
I've been banned from [community profile] scans_daily, so if you don't see anymore posts from me there that's why.

December 2009

S M T W T F S
  1234 5
6 789101112
13141516171819
20212223242526
2728293031  

Syndicate

RSS Atom

Page Summary

Style Credit

Expand Cut Tags

No cut tags